July 14, 2004

On the phone with Ralph Nader: Salon editor David Talbot and the presidential contender have a frank and honest exchange of views.

The shell-of-a-man-formerly-known-as-Ralph-Nader would
be pitiful, if what he was doing were not so
destructive...

www.salon.com: Nader: How about the second piece
["Strange Alliance: Why Is Rupert Murdoch's Media
Empire Publishing Ralph Nader's Latest Tome?"] -- this
complete smear? I mean, this one doesn't even pass the
laugh test. Where's your banking done? Do you know any
major publisher that isn't owned by a pig
conglomerate?
Talbot: Rupert Murdoch is not a typical media mogul.
You and I know what his agenda is and what his impact
has been on American politics and culture.
Nader: Hey, wait a minute! If he had censored my book,
you would've written an article saying, "Hey, now we
can prove that these conglomerate CEOs are censorious
and anti-democratic because they rejected Nader's
book!" Six of one, half dozen of the other. You had it
both ways, didn't you?
Talbot: You of all people, Ralph, know -- because we
quoted you on this very subject -- what an unusual and
unusually noxious role Mr. Murdoch has played in the
American media landscape. And for you, of all people,
to deny that and say, "Oh he's just another
run-of-the-mill media mogul" is disingenuous.

Break the Bush Cabal Stranglehold on the "US
Mainstream News Media," Show Up for Democracy in 2004:
Defeat Bush (again!)


http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/07/14/naderphonecall/


http://www.salon.com

On the phone with Ralph Nader: Salon editor David Talbot and the presidential contender have a frank and honest exchange of views.

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July 14, 2004 | Last Friday, Ralph Nader's campaign
spokesman Kevin Zeese e-mailed Salon, saying that
Nader wanted to speak with Salon editor David Talbot
"about recent articles that have appeared in Salon
concerning him and his candidacy." The following is a
transcript of the ensuing three-way phone conversation
among Nader, Zeese and Talbot. It ranged over Rupert
Murdoch (whose company published Nader's new book),
Democratic "dirty tricks" against the independent
candidate's presidential bid, and Nader's acceptance
of conservative money and support.

Nader opened the conversation by charging that Salon
had not solicited a response from him when preparing
two recent critical pieces about him -- "The Dark Side
of Ralph Nader," by Lisa Chamberlain, and "Strange
Alliance," by Eric Boehlert. For the record,
Chamberlain made repeated phone calls to Nader's
campaign office and Zeese's cellphone seeking a
comment from Nader or his spokesman but received no
replies. And Boehlert spoke to Zeese on the phone,
quoting him in his piece.

Nader: Why didn't your reporters call for a response?

Talbot: They did.

Nader: Since [Lisa Chamberlain] was writing about the
campaign, wouldn't you have the decency to call our
campaign office?

Talbot: It's always Salon's procedure, whenever we do
a critical article on anyone -- whether it's the Bush
administration or you or anyone -- to give them a
chance to respond. That's always our policy.

Nader: Look, I've been in journalism too, and when I
was doing a critical piece on someone, I would call.

Talbot: Look, Ralph, I'm just not buying your premise
that our reporter didn't try to reach you. Someone in
your organization is not giving you the right
information...

Nader: Wait, wait, wait! No, I'm telling you, if you
make a call and you don't get through, and you're not
working under deadline because you're working on the
damned thing for three or four weeks, you write a
letter. You write a letter! That's what I do. You
write a letter!

Talbot: Our track record with you is that you've
ducked every request we've made for an interview.
We've called your office, we've gone through your
friends, old Nader Raiders, people you trust and like.
We've tried a number of ways to speak with you. And
you've repeatedly avoided us. So what we decided when
we contacted you again recently -- and again tried
unsuccessfully to get you on the phone -- was that we
were getting the same old runaround. You obviously
weren't going to talk with us.

Nader: See, it's funny because Kevin doesn't have any
recollection you called this office.

Zeese: Well, I'll check my notes and look for it and
see what I can...

Talbot: I'll have Lisa call you and give you chapter
and verse on when she called you, Kevin, and tried to
speak with Ralph.

Nader: How about the second piece ["Strange Alliance:
Why Is Rupert Murdoch's Media Empire Publishing Ralph
Nader's Latest Tome?"] -- this complete smear? I mean,
this one doesn't even pass the laugh test. Where's
your banking done? Do you know any major publisher
that isn't owned by a pig conglomerate?

Talbot: Rupert Murdoch is not a typical media mogul.
You and I know what his agenda is and what his impact
has been on American politics and culture.

Nader: Hey, wait a minute! If he had censored my book,
you would've written an article saying, "Hey, now we
can prove that these conglomerate CEOs are censorious
and anti-democratic because they rejected Nader's
book!" Six of one, half dozen of the other. You had it
both ways, didn't you?

Talbot: You of all people, Ralph, know -- because we
quoted you on this very subject -- what an unusual and
unusually noxious role Mr. Murdoch has played in the
American media landscape. And for you, of all people,
to deny that and say, "Oh he's just another
run-of-the-mill media mogul" is disingenuous.

Nader: Wait, wait, let me clarify this. Give me a few
seconds, will you? Number one, I've gone after Murdoch
mercilessly in my speeches; number two, we've
challenged his acquisitions when he tried to own the
papers in Boston and New York and so forth. So that
wasn't just talk. And his messing around with China
and kowtowing to China.

But to follow your principle would be for me to say,
"I don't want anything to do with NBC. It's owned by a
pig company called GE. And I certainly don't want
anything to do with MSNBC because it's owned by both
GE and Microsoft." They are worse than Rupert Murdoch,
and I will tell you why -- Rupert Murdoch does not
produce death-dealing weapons and sell them to
dictatorships.

Talbot: No, he just supports and promotes those
dictatorships.

Nader: Yes, but there's quite a difference isn't
there, between bullets and support? He doesn't build
nuclear plants; he doesn't pollute the Hudson River.

Talbot: He just played the leading role in creating
the propagandistic atmosphere for the war in Iraq. His
media company played and continues to play that role.
You know that, Ralph. It's just disingenuous of you to
downplay what Rupert Murdoch is all about.

Nader: Of course! They're all odious. Who do you think
owns St. Martin's [Nader's previous publisher]? Who do
you think owns all the others? Who do you think owns
the Washington Post?

Talbot: Well, you and I will have to agree to disagree
on the uniquely noxious role that Rupert Murdoch plays
in the American media.

Nader: Well, let me trap you. Will you let me trap
you? What if your brilliant Salon articles were
reported on Murdoch's television programs -- would you
object to that? Would you? What if they said, "Salon
reported today etc., etc.," and they carried your
message to millions of people that you don't reach.
Would you object to that?

Talbot: This is different. He is paying you a good
advance to publish your book because he has political
interests in what you're doing in the presidential
campaign.

Nader: He's paying me money to fight the likes of him
and everyone else!

Talbot: That's not what his interest is this time,
Ralph. He's interested in having you sabotage the
Democratic effort to unseat President Bush.

Nader: If you read the book, which I hope you'll do
and then review it, you'll see it's not a campaign
book.

Talbot: I'll go you one better than that: I'll read
your book and then interview you.

Nader: Well, fine. I can't wait to get an actual call
from David Talbot.

Talbot: [Laughs.] Believe me, I've made many to you.
And I'd love to actually sit down and interview you,
Ralph. So let's try to set that up. Do I have a
commitment from you that you'll give me an interview?

Nader: What's the nature of the interview?

Talbot: Your candidacy. Because here's the story --
and for some reason you feel stung by this -- we take
your campaign seriously. Salon, perhaps alone among
the national media, thinks you and your campaign
should be given the scrutiny that every serious
presidential candidate is given.

Nader: [Laughs.] Are you serious? Do you hear Kevin
laughing? We're skewered to the wall every day, every
hour, by every conceivable media. Don't make yourself
something special.

If you really take our campaign seriously, why don't
you support our right to be on the ballot and not
dirty-tricked by the Democrats?

Talbot: I support your right to be on the ballot,
Ralph, if you don't get dirty money to do it. That's
one question I'd like to pursue with you. Your own
running mate, Peter Camejo, has just said that he
doesn't think you should take money from GOP fat cats.


Nader: Have you written articles about Democratic
candidates over the last 10 years accepting hundreds
of millions of dollars from Republican fat cats
playing both sides of the aisle?

Talbot: I thought you were supposed to have higher
standards.

Nader: No, I want you to answer my question before we
get down to specifics.

Talbot: We've gone after the Democrats again and
again. Look at the story we ran today ["The Wimpiness
of the Democrats: Part 46].

Nader: All right, let me get you in another corner. In
2002, there were eight companies that pleaded guilty
to criminal violations -- Chevron and Pfizer and
Warner-Lambert -- either to environmental violations
or antitrust violations. They gave $9 million to the
Republican and Democratic parties in 2002, when they
could give soft money. Did you criticize the Democrats
for that?

Talbot: We've consistently criticized the Democrats
and Republicans for the corrupt way that politics is
financed.

Nader: So you'll check it out because it's still a
good story, right? So then do you want all political
candidates to interview all potential contributors to
see if they've farted in the wrong place?

Talbot: Look, you know and I know who we're talking
about here. The San Francisco Chronicle just named
several Republican high-rollers who are funding you
and yet have no interest in your consumer rights
agenda.

Nader: Really? Will you ask the Democrats to give back
all the money they've gotten from Republicans?

Talbot: Why are these groups giving you money and
trying to get you on the ballot? They have no interest
in your political agenda. They're working to get Bush
elected so he can keep the war going and keep
supporting his rich friends.

Nader: Wait, wait, wait. Working to get someone on the
ballot is working to give someone their free speech. I
have no problem with that.

Talbot: I have no problem with that either. But I
think you need to question who some of your political
bedfellows are, and ask why they're helping you. The
press should do that with any candidate.

Nader: No, no. The criteria [for making a campaign
contribution] is that you're an American citizen and
it's within the limits of the law. Period. We are not
going to let Salon...

Talbot: Hold on, let me finish. We have a right to
point out that if you are in bed with people and
groups who are anti-gay, antiabortion,
anti-immigration...

Nader: Oh Jesus, you're really degrading yourself.

Talbot: Well, that's the truth.

Nader: These are press releases by these idiot groups.
Look at our gay rights position -- it's much better
than Kerry's.

Talbot: Why are these conservative groups helping you
then?

Nader: Because they're mischievous, that's why! They
want to get their name in the paper and trick people
like Salon.

Talbot: They're mischievous because they think they
can sabotage the Kerry campaign...

Nader: But they haven't done it, they haven't done it.


Talbot: ...by helping you.

Nader: What about the Democrats hiring three corporate
law firms to harass us and drive us off the Arizona
ballot? Does that bother you? In other words, what you
don't like are Republicans getting us on the ballot so
we can express our free speech.

Talbot: I don't support any effort to block you from
legally getting on a state ballot.

Nader: All right. And are you telling them about the
Republicans helping the Democrats? Do you know that
the top... tell him, Kevin.

Zeese: The most recent numbers are 25 percent of
Bush's supporters are also supporting Kerry.

Talbot: And why are they doing that?

Zeese: Because they're corporate paymasters! They're
buying access...

Talbot: They're buying access to Kerry -- a man you
have met with and honored, and said he's significantly
better than Al Gore. But the reason they're giving
money to you is not to buy access -- it's to keep
Bush, a man you say [has been a disaster for the
country], in the White House.

Nader: This is ridiculous. You're treating Republicans
like they're all criminals. Did you ever hear of
Republicans who might work with us on issues over the
years, who might believe in civil liberties even
though they might prefer a Republican ticket?

Talbot: Look, you and I know that those kinds of
Republicans are few and far between. And I challenge
you to show me that the bulk of this money you're
getting from conservatives is meant to advance the
cause of American consumers. I just don't believe
that. And if that's not the case, why is your own
running mate, Peter Camejo, saying that you should
give back this money?

Nader: Ask him now. Look, why are you so concerned
about a tiny fraction of our support in our humble
attempt to go past $1 million? Most of our money is
under $100 [per contribution].

Talbot: They're not just giving money. These
conservative groups are working behind the scenes to
get you on state ballots. You're basically saying it's
all right to work with the devil, Ralph, because
you've lost your perspective.

Nader: OK, now I've flushed you out. Now you've come
out. I'm an expert in flushing out bias, prejudice and
prejudgment. And you've demonstrated all three. Until
you go after the Democrats for obstructing us with
dirty tricks and using both Republican and Democratic
money -- they used a Republican law firm, by the way,
among their three law firms -- until you're
even-handed, I will declare you hopelessly prejudiced.


Talbot: Well, we're obviously not going to sort this
all out here. But I would like to sit down with you
and have a formal interview.

Nader: You have already interviewed me. You have
already prejudged me. You have already indicated your
predisposition. And you have lied.

Talbot: How have I lied?

Nader: On the anti-gay thing: That's a declared lie.
You want to explain it to him, Kevin?

Zeese: The obvious thing is that Ralph stands for
strong issues on gay rights.

Talbot: But you are working with groups that are
opposed to gay rights.

Zeese: We're not working with them at all.

Talbot: What agenda do you share with the Reform
Party?

Zeese: Oh my God. Have you looked at their platform?
They're against the war, they're for repealing the
Patriot Act...

Talbot: Are you with them on abortion rights and
immigration?

Nader: Not on immigration...

Zeese: We're running on Ralph's agenda, not the Reform
Party's. We made that clear to the Reform Party. We do
not kowtow to everything they wanted. We said, endorse
us if you want to -- that's your choice. But we have
an 85 percent area of agreement.

Nader: We're not going to play the fascist game of the
two-party monopoly barricading itself from any
competition, with all kinds of statutory obstruction
that cost third parties immense time and money if they
can surmount them. This is a dictatorship, which you
don't seem to understand...

Talbot: I...

Nader: I've got another phone call, I've got to go.
Bye-bye.


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Posted by richard at July 14, 2004 07:40 PM